How to Be More Disciplined Through Playfulness | Ido Portal & Dr. Andrew Huberman

Play Versus Discipline

00:00play versus discipline. I think for some people it would be helpful to try and uh operationalize a bit of what we're going to go to today. And I know you're not a fan of like morning routine or this or that, but I can imagine walking toward a practice of any kind, a workout of any kind, making scrambled eggs as either I'm going to approach approach this from a with a sense of play, or I'm going to approach this with a sense of discipline.

00:30I'm going to try and find some friction, some edges that force me to rewire something. Now, play can help rewire. Discipline can help rewire. But of your waking hours, what percentage of time do you spend in kind of a playful explorative state?

00:45Like kind of keep it light and loose versus, you know, I know you're also a believer in like there's really value to putting up mental or physical or both corridors so that your system your whole system improves because at those friction points is where plasticity can be triggered.

01:05I think both of these things and also the relation to motivation in in both of them are required scaffoldings that we have to use at certain points in time but are not the essential will that connection to what we we don't know nothing about that we have researched that deeply in v various spheres but often we just replace pure will with discipline or with motivation but once I motivated myself I don't need will anymore and if I dis if I discipline myself into doing something I also hijack the opportunity playfulness it brings a direction and a flavor of something else a different way

02:06to interact with something how do we start to look at that what is the basic requirement I don't want to do this without this requirement I can't research will now if I hijack it if I take the process and I distort it I use discipline then again I'm out of the game or if I motivate myself.

02:33Same problem. Playfulness try to walk a different path a little bit. Maybe it's not it quite. It's not the will that search for a will that you know many authors and and practitioners have looked for because it's so elusive. But it's definitely something to cultivate and we've talked about it the last time we met

Cultivating Awe And Playfulness

02:59and it brings about so many positive things. I think people should first develop discipline and use motivation and also research playfulness which is a lot more tricky for people uh these days. It brings with it incredible benefits. The aesthetic intensities that are missing from our lives, awe, curiosity, this deep sense of curiosity.

03:31These things can allow us to totally transform the emotional schema which is stuck rigid. This model of ourselves that is often times rigidifies all the way to depression. The most tricky situation of all the total bankruptcy of that budget of those resources.

03:59So something like awe which happens also in psychedelics. Isn't this a huge part of the psychedelic thing? What about experiencing all regularly in a directed targeted and practiced way? It can be cold showers and hot shower an experience on the sensory level.

04:21It can be something that is more related to the environment like skygazing. incredible practice. 10 minutes a day, your eyes cannot grab onto things. So, and it can be and very important conceptual or reading poetry or certain types of stories or literature touches that.

04:44So, all of this comes along with playfulness, our interaction with things. I treat this as a playful thing. Mhm. So if I think about it, it's almost always present because it allows me not to rigidify myself in front of the challenge. I'm working with athletes or work in cinema or do some project or work with a government body or or a military organization.

05:11I bring playfulness. Playfulness allows me to go much further, much deeper. My discipline wouldn't get me there. [clears throat] It got me certain places. Who got there to that place? I discovered that it wasn't me because I use discipline.

05:30So, it's often leaving you kind of out the totality of you. I am very very intrigued by this play versus discipline uh thing. So many years spent I wouldn't say punching the clock but you know there just things you have to do because experiments have to be done in this time in this way.

05:51one can develop a a real sense of an ability to push through and to do things and beautiful stuff can come out of what I call [snorts] chop wood carry water. It's just like phase is like okay we're just going to chop wood carry water. But this play thing is really powerful.

06:06I had this experience when I lived in San Diego. My lab started there and I I used to commute really far to work because I my home was um in an area that I really liked and that I could afford far from campus and the traffic was just brutal.

06:25Anyone that's ever driven in San Diego, these big wide eight-lane freeways and and I like listening to music, so I would drive and I remember one morning just being so frustrated with the drive even though traffic was moving. And I've

Finding Play In Daily Life

06:37only had this experience once and I just decided I'm gonna [clears throat] just slalom the car to work. And I wasn't speeding. I'm like slaloming the car. I'm listening to music and I'm like this is the way to go to work. I can remember this one commute is a real standout experience in my life of like and I thought why don't I do this all the time?

06:58The old frog crosses the street video game. Right. Exactly. So, I'm just, you know, and I get to work and I do thing and and this was one instance. I don't think I've ever done it again. And I like to drive, but I never deliberately turn on like I'm going to take an ordinary experience that I do every single day that usually is kind of like loathe or mildly irritated at traffic.

07:19I'm just going to enjoy this experience. I think now that it would be so great to just be able to apply that to all these different little transitions. Oddly enough, I also have flashbulblike memories of being in Yusede where I've spent a lot of time.

07:35I've hiked a lot of the peaks in Yusede. I love it. I live lived and worked up there when I was in college and I just adore. You know what? I remember the great vistas and great peas that I had urinating in the woods. I like have like flashb memories of like and there's something there.

07:51I think it's just the calm and relaxation like oh like I'm just a creature peeing in the woods, you know. And uh as one does, you know, when you when you get into thinking like this is awesome. I have these like my life is great. It's so weird that these micro experiences that occupy like 10 to 15 seconds or a minute depending on how much water you drink, right?

08:13One commute could grab like real mental real estate in our brain. There's something there. And I know people are probably thinking like this is crazy, but I think most people would probably describe like kind of odd flashbulb memories that they have of things that are kind of trivial.

Presence And Flashbulb Memories

08:29Do you notice that the the quality of those memories cuz you recall them and it they it has a flavor and a texture and a resolution which is different than other things which sometimes are should have been a lot more detailed. And it comes and goes, but we can become a lot more deliberate about it.

08:49And it represents a certain presence in that specific scenario of a heightened it's a heightened presence thing. Why? Those are questions. But playfulness opens the door for that. Some of my best seats, my best meditations were using a playful approach.

09:13Similarly to how you navigate the traffic, you can use it right in your book. I tried that. It was very diff I will

Applying Play To Work

09:21tell you it's very difficult because there's aspects of the book that are very technical. There are aspects that I really want to get communicate things in a certain way. I definitely tried to relax myself. Um Cal Newport who's a sort of a guy who's a big proponent of of deep work uh staying away from technology to you know writing by hand, typewriter, this kind of thing.

09:40He said uh and I tried this. He said to approach work with um kind of a languid intentionality kind of relaxed but with a direction. I tried it. I have to scruff myself and bring myself to it. Even though I want to do it and I just like have to like like I imagine I'm like doing this but that deep belief Yeah.

10:00is already a self-fulfilling prophecy cuz you perceive yourself as that person. This is the way for you to do things. Mhm. and I'm similar but I've glimpsed something else. Yes, I I also I'm the disciplinary person. I'm a person of great work ethic and this is how I came about.

10:21But then I discovered it doesn't matter because how you write that book using that approach it leaks into your words and it's a different way of doing things. you're not going to write doniote in this way. [sighs] So I appreciate that and I also want to say

Discipline As A Scaffolding

10:47come back to that thing this scaffolding the the fact that we have used discipline for such a long time is very positive. We need that first thing is to get things done. I'm the practice person. I'm the met person. You do it or

The Handstand Metaphor

11:04you talk about it. So discipline is very important but it's similar to the wall in learning to do a handstand. If you use the wall one way where you're all the time pushing yourself off of the wall, try to catch your handstand, you become reliant on the wall.

11:20Notice what I said. You push yourself off of the wall. But there is a different approach. We can use the wall but pull off of it. Not quite push oursel off of it, but pull off of it, which comes from the other end, from our hands, from the connection to the ground.

11:38that does not necessitate a wall. So I can pull myself when I feel myself falling forward later on. This is the correct way to use discipline. You should use it as a scaffolding as a way to get things going like write that book. But inside the process, you must make sure you don't lean hard into it.

11:59You don't leave everything for it to dictate. And you bring some playfulness, some relaxation, some deep choice. I want to do this.