How Social Media Affects Romantic Relationships | Dr. Paul Eastwick & Dr. Andrew Huberman

Instagram As A Dating App

00:00The biggest dating app in the world by an enormous margin is it's not Tinder, Instagram. Oh, and this was actually very much in parallel to the the algorithm favoring communication by direct message. People will say like social media isn't social anymore.

00:21It's not about like seeing what people are doing. the real dynamics, the real time spent, and you'll notice how you get rewarded and what gets served up in the algorithm. Rewarded meaning like what what what posts do better than others. If there's a strong correlate to communication about that through direct message, it's a dating app that's kind of cloaked for many people as a social media app, but of course, I use it to teach neuroscience, right, and and other things.

00:49And this will be on Instagram. So, I mean, I'm a big fan of of Instagram and other social media platforms for teaching and learning, and I say that sincerely, but the majority of the time spent now is not scrolling. It's it's getting to communications that move to real world and then feed back Yeah.

01:09to social media. So, I found that um interesting. So, I'm imagining a question uh because you study questions people ask them on dates. We used to be

Derogation Of Alternatives

01:18able to say if you were on a deserted island, who would you want to be there with? Like who's the one person that you could stand being with or perhaps even really enjoy being with, assuming you have all the resources. Now, I think the question should be, who's the one person that would get you to not engage with anyone else in in the world?

01:37In other words, set down what you called, and I've never heard this before, the derivation of alternatives. This is an interesting term. So, in some ways, like Committed partnership is about setting aside the idea that there might be somebody better for us.

01:53And I would argue again I have strong positive feelings towards Instagram. Um I really do uh it's a a fun and great platform when used in you know moderation. But it's the opposite of the deserted island. and a former guest on this podcast who happens to be a divorce lawyer, um, James Ston, has talked about the fact that many, many, many of the divorces that he um, litigates, no, that he that he's involved inves Yeah.

02:18that he helps resolve uh, win for his clients started with uh, a innocuous communication on his starts with a like, starts with a like, starts with a conversation, starts with a ends up in the corner of a grievance or a or a a commonality. that's sensed and then the derivation of alternatives emerges and eventually the relationship dissolves.

02:43We think about how people handle alternative partners. If you're in a

Relationship Defense Mechanisms

02:46purportedly monogous relationship, this is a challenge that relationships are going to face. And uh I sort of see these like twin streams happening at the same time. So what you see in general is that for people who are in relationships and especially if they are happy in that relationship, any alternative partner that you can throw at them, they will tend to think that that alternative partner is pretty weak sauce.

03:17They think that person is less desirable than any other metric you might want to come up with for how desirable that person actually is. That's what we mean by derrogation of alternatives. It's like they're coming in up here, but because I'm partnered with you and I'm happy with you, I see them as less desirable than they actually are.

03:35Side note, that's why this one of the reasons why the marketplace metaphor starts to break down because people actually start to become bad barometers of what is quote unquote good. You stop seeing this alternative's actual value because you're so happy with the person that you have.

03:53Okay. So, this is a good thing and this is a real defense mechanism that people have. Is it a defense mechanism or I mean, but it's protective of healthy monogous relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it in the best Yeah. You know what?

04:07That's so funny because in our jargon we say defense mechanism. I mean that in the best possible protective mechanism. Yeah. Protective mechanism. Right. Yeah. You're defending the relationship. That's so funny. I'd like forgotten. We've had a few too many uh psychologist.

04:21Right. Of course. that has a negative connotation for some people, not for me. Okay? So, it's a protective mechanism, but at the same time, people also do this thing that you might call like playing with fire, but it's more like, you know, playing with what really seems to be a harmless book of matches.

04:39And I just I'm just messaging these people. Well, what's the big deal? This isn't going to go anywhere. Uh I'm just, you know, we're we're chatting a little bit. This isn't going to go anywhere. And things escalate.

Outside Attraction Fueling Desire

04:51Sorry to interrupt, but Um, and you know, one of uh our former guests on this podcast who's immensely popular in the dating relationships and romance sphere is Esther Prell, and I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I think the perception about some of her messaging, whether accurate or not, is that there can be some value to, you know, in in her first book, I think, and I haven't read it, but um the the excerpt that was uh relayed to me was this notion like, oh, like someone isn't feeling as much chemistry in their relationship.

05:21So, like the woman, this wouldn't happen nowadays most likely, but goes to a bar and like flirts a bit and then like some some sense of of um sexual confidence is restored and then her husband is then attracted to her differently again. And you know, I've heard the more crude phrase, doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you eat at home.

05:38This is more of the 1950s60s variety. By the way, none of these statements come from me, although my mouth is saying them. These are things that you hear out there, right? Yeah. directly uh in opposition to what you're saying, which is not to say that what you're saying is wrong.

05:53I just think that there was a there was about a 20 or 30 year period there where people kind of assumed that monogamy could thrive. Yeah. Despite the inputs and monogamy could thrive perhaps even better if people acknowledge this aspect of self that is still attracted other people.

06:11They talk about it. what you're talking about is really a more of a protective cloak around the commitment. I do sense people are veering back toward that what you're describing. You know how I think about it is is the protective cloak. Um that that's sort of there as a baseline, but then signals will get through some sometimes sometimes cuz you're messing around on Instagram, but sometimes because you went to the bar with your friends and there was this cute guy who was chatting you up.

06:40And the evidence there too I interpret I think the way a stair would interpret it and and what you see in the data also suggests something like a protective mechanism

Studies On Sexual Fantasies

06:53again it's playing with fire but if you look in studies where they ask people have a sexual fantasy about your partner now how much sexual desire do you feel for your partner it has gone up great that's pretty straightforward now please have a sexual fantasy about I don't know whoever whoever's in second place that's not your partner, then you start having sexual feelings for that person and you start having sexual feelings for your partner at the same time.

07:22So, it's exactly the metaphor that you're describing that when we feel a sense of attraction, it can rebound onto our partner. And by the way, it doesn't happen in the reverse. Okay? So the partner, your current partner, again for most people in happy relationships, holds a special position, you might say, where even when there is a little bit of a threat, and I've noticed somebody, it it rebounds somewhat.

07:46I don't advise that people go out and do this. [laughter] You're Are you saying it rebounds like it's a it's a fuel for the relationship the way that Esther and other people have talked about? That's a real thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

07:58I mean, it's recent studies. I can point to one or two. They're all like within the last few years. This is going to be very uncomfortable for some people to hear that their partner may come home immensely attracted to them because they had some sort of interaction during the day of either being attracted to someone or receiving signals of attractiveness.

08:18Right. Where I am a thousand% with with Estair is that the danger the problem is not that your partner was sexually attracted to somebody else. The problem

When Interaction Becomes Infidelity

08:28is usually in the escalation. It's yeah, but now are they like repeatedly hanging out with them and having like a conversations that they feel secretive about or that you know if if it's you that you feel secretive about? Those are the warning signs because then what will start to happen is that the protective layer that people typically put around their partners, it will start to erode and that's when people are at a greater risk of infidelity.

08:52It's usually a process like that. the simple fact that we can be attracted to other people. That is not a problem for the average relationship. It's the repeated follow through on that attraction that becomes a problem. And that's something that evolved in recent years that there used to be far more transient interactions that would never resurface again.

09:13You sit next to someone on a plane, you'd have a conversation. Uh there might be attraction, there might not be, but you develop some degree of intimacy. Some people would disclose a lot on planes and then you never hear or talk to them again.

09:25Yeah, there's almost an opportunity for people to follow up and connect with people. That's what James is referring to when he talks about social media being a um an uh barring other person's [clears throat] language here, an attack vector, you know, on a relationship.

09:41And maybe that is a good reason for people who are in committed relationships to just get off of social media period. It's also a context where people spend quote unquote spend time with people for other reasons. Yeah, it's tricky. Uh if if I I don't recommend using that sort of process to bolster your relationship.

10:00I guess if you're going to do it, you know, try to do it by watching somebody. Um, yeah. Who's uh Yeah. figure out if you're a man who's with a woman, just ask her like what actor does she have the hots for and like be kind enough to watch a movie featuring him.

10:16Like maybe that's that's a way to make this or the

Managing Attraction To Others

10:21reverse. Yeah, sure. Some of the um what appear to be the strongest and happiest couples that I know, I know very little about their dynamics, period. Yeah. which is kind of an interesting thing in its own right, but some of the people that are in that set seem to have a pretty uh relaxed rapport around, oh yeah, uh so and so referring to their spouse really likes that actor or actress.

10:43Like it's like it's just kind of a thing that they understand, but it's over there, right? It's it's at a distance. Yeah. It's not um it's not like a looming threat. It's very different if it's about somebody that you both like know and spend time with.

10:58It's much more threatening in those cases. And and I think that also is part of why that derrogation process happens is because that threat feels very uncomfortable. Like even if it's your attraction, like you kind of want to downplay it because the thought of what would it mean if I'm like with the wrong person or like what would happen if this thing spiraled out of control, it it's upsetting for most people.

11:25I mean, we take all this time to build a relationship up to be this thing that we really value that's a central part of our lives. The thought that like it could disappear at a moment's notice because of of a a mistake that we would make, it it can be threatening to most people.

11:44Even if we're imagining ourselves engaging in the actions that would bring things to an end, [music] [music]