The Secret to Deeper Conversations | TED Intersections

00:00going through life with a willingness to ask more questions than you make statements. Liberating. Nothing that happens after the question is your responsibility. Your responsibility is have the curiosity, the integrity, the thoughtfulness, and the humility to ask what's on your mind and not bite your tongue because well, it might be uncomfortable.

00:21Well, what are they going to say? Let that be their problem. What if we shuffle the deck? I'm fine with that. All right. Okay. Deck. Duly shuffled. Okay. You go first now. All right. So I can own what I've done. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. All right.

00:50First question. Are we losing the ability to have real conversations? H I I don't think so. Actually, I think that with everything that's going on from a technical perspective, we are at least in my friend group, I'm finding that people are yearning for more and more uh intimacy, vulnerability, you know, dinner parties.

01:15Like I'm I'm feeling a pendulum shift back um because I feel like people have been so digitally focused for so long. And um no, I I don't feel that way at all. I get that. And I think the pendulum is definitely shifting. I guess when I read this, the editor in me is like, well, what do you mean by real?

01:35Yeah. So, I think for some folks, just being able to like text you when they're freaking out and just have that little human conversation is real connectively because it sort of paves the way for a more open conversation. Some people aren't ready to have like the eye to eye face to face like conversation, but they could chat you up all day on WhatsApp and that's about as real as they can get.

02:06And I I don't know, but I I suspect some people kind of need to be walked from digital and virtual into real world into real space, real time. And maybe that's what's a real conversation for them. kind of pulls them towards something else, you know.

02:23Yeah. And also I was just thinking I'm probably um you know more exposed to that because most of the work I do is in mental health now and so most of the people I'm talking to is about their mental health and they're opening up about their mental health journeys and so I'm kind of predisposed to a lot of very vulnerable, very honest, very raw conversations, probably more than the general population.

02:46I imagine as some people start to have those conversations, their capacity for it grows and maybe their desire for it. Like once you get the benefit of like, oh, that's what that was. Then you want more of it, right? You want more of it and you find a facility with it.

03:00For liability purposes, I'm going to start with a gentle swish and flick. Okay. Okay. This is good. So many men feel lonier than ever and don't know how to talk to one another. Where do they start? I think that they might have to start inward because if you're not comfortable saying, "Hey man, I'm not sure how to like connect other people."

03:31Mhm. That's a level of exposure I'm not sure some guys are ready for. If you're already struggling to connect other people, I think for some men, maybe that first conversation needs to be in the mirror and be like, "Look, this this is what my life is.

03:44There's no use kidding myself. Here's where I really am. This is what's happening. This is what my social life is like. This is what my romantic life is like. This is how I see myself. This is what I actually want. And figure out if I had more connection.

03:57What would that mean to me? What would a perfect day in my life look like if I had the connections I wanted rather than just, well, you should reach out more. You should be more connected. Why? To what end? I think a lot of guys that I know anyway rebel against that because they're not sure like when you're done like when does when do I know if this works?

04:22Just kind of sitting in the discomfort and like okay am I am I social now? Like am I human now? It just feels too fuzzy. So maybe the first thing they need to do is get it clear in here so that they have a sense of agency when they're asked to go do something.

04:37and they can go that's not really what I'm looking for and mean it as opposed to do that. Like my goal is to make this change in my life that would look this way and that doesn't seem like it meets this goal so I'm going to pass a little more actively than just being kind of like blown sideways through.

04:56You should be more social for socializing sake. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean I was thinking of it just like a more very practical tip. If someone is lonely and they don't know how to talk to another man, I think the the easiest thing is to invite someone to coffee and ask them about their life.

05:16Because I find that if if someone is is hesitant or scared or doesn't know how to be vulnerable with another man, it's it's much easier if someone has gone first. And so, but if you really are feeling the need to do that, then by inviting someone to coffee, you know, ideally someone that you have been close to before and just saying, "Hey, I just want to check in like how's everything going in your life, that guy is most likely going to share and and and then that will make it easier for them you to share."

05:48So, I think it's a very much I guess I'm going to this question in a much more practical of someone's watching this right now. They're like, "Man, I feel like I don't have any good guy friendss anymore. I don't feel like I'm connected to my buddies at all."

05:58And actually, I have a a short little story about this, which is interesting, is I was on the way home for Thanksgiving and I went home and I and I was at the time, gosh, it was so 19 years ago, so I was like 29, 30 years old. And I said, "Dad, after Thanksgiving, can we go into the study and I want to interview you about your life?"

06:18My dad was like, "Okay." We were close. And so I asked my dad all these questions about his life and it was just a great experience. But at the end I asked him that final question. I said, 'Dad, I said, 'What is your if you have any regrets?

06:29And he said, Blake, he said, I do have one regret. I said, okay, what is it? He says, look, I your mom and I have had this beautiful marriage for now 37 years. You, your sister, your brother have turned out great. You're all doing different things and following your passion.

06:44I've had a great, you know, I've loved my medical practice and and helping people. But um over the years I really lost touch with all my guy friends, you know, all my friends from college, all my friends from medical school. You know, I always just said no to the, you know, the weekend golf guys trips or the this or that because I was just so busy with you and your mom and my work.

07:05And now you guys are in college or out of the house. You know, I'm now getting close to retirement. And I love your mom, but I can't spend every moment with her. And so I don't really have anyone to hang out with and I'm lonely. And he said, "So don't make that mistake."

07:21And so I at that time I was 30 years old. I had just started Tom Shoes who were like two years old. And I wrote an email to my seven best friends. Couple of them for like college. Some were from newer friends in LA. And I said I told him the story and I said, "We can't have this happen to us.

07:38Let's do an annual trip every year." And so we started our first trip in 19 years ago and we're getting ready to have our 20th anniversary. Where'd you go? Where was the first trip? First trip was a camping and fishing trip in Colorado. And uh and we've done one trip every single year for 19 years.

07:53The group is now 14 guys. We call it the rugged adventure club. It was rugged and then when I sold Tom's it became not so rugged, right? We started going to the Maldes and all these places. You can't call it like the guys who glam. Exactly.

08:08But I I bring that I bring that up because, you know, it that group has taught me how to have really meaningful, deep relationships with men, which has had probably as big of an impact on my mental health as anything else. I love that story because your dad had the presence of mind and the the willingness to be vulnerable with his regrets.

08:36Can I tell you my version of that story? Sure, I'm here for it. I My father, you know, my father passed away last year and was ill for a very long time. His health like declined, declined, declined, declined for years. And he and I were really quite aranged.

08:51The estrangement, you know, he and my mother divorced when I was five. The arangement deepened after I came out. And so it was just kind of like a process. And my father was a Jehovah's Witness. So it was just like one thing after another. Eventually, I kind of felt convicted and I was like, I need to keep trying to reach out.

09:07And I tried to reach out and tried to reach out. Finally, kind of in the last year of his life, he was really not doing well. And I thought, I need to like make time to fly home to Florida. Okay. And just sit down and talk to the guy. And I said, "Dad, I want to do your oral history.

09:25I feel like I don't know you." Wow. Like not really know you. Yeah. Made a special trip. Planned the whole thing. Dad, are we still going to do this? Yep. I'll see you in three days. Okay, cool. Flew down, checked in the hotel, got up the next day, went to visit my mom.

09:38Dad, are we still in? Yep. I'll see you two days. What? Another day, Dad. We do. Yep. Tomorrow. Do it. The morning comes and I call him. Okay, Dad. I'm ready to go. When should I come meet you? You know, we've got time. I don't want you to put yourself out and like I'm not really feeling up to it.

10:00Like we'll don't worry about it, but we we've got time. It's like, Dad, I booked a flight for you. Yeah. I bought equipment. Like, I'm ready to do this now. Let you know what let next time you come down, let me know. Oh, no. We'll do it then.

10:15We've got time. Oh, no. And in that moment, I decided, yeah, I'm done. I'm not going to ask anymore. Yeah. I don't know what it was, but I think my father was unable to really process being a dad be beyond being a provider. And that human connection of like this is how to be a man.

10:40This is how to be a black man never quite clicked for him even after I became a storyteller. He knew I was a journalist, very proud of my work, but couldn't quite get like, "No, I don't need what you can provide for me. I need you." Yeah. And when he passed, I was supposed to like write his obit.

11:02Still haven't. Yeah. Cuz I don't know what to write. Okay. So, this question is great. Um I'm assuming it's the one we're already having, but you tell me. What's the most transformational conversation you've ever had? Oh god, I had so many.

11:17I mean, I was an interviewer for a living, so I've had I've I've had way too many. I think the biggest collection of transformational conversations I ever had was when I was a national host on NPR. I got to interview Eric Holder, the former US Attorney General under uh Barack Obama, and I was really excited to interview him because it was one of the first like people of his echelon that I had ever talked to.

11:40I was really excited. Then after a while, like I could kind of hear my goofy family in the background cuz we're we're very we're not high flutin. We're not fancy people. Uh very together, but not like we don't put on airs and attitudes. And something about it felt weird, especially because I wasn't thinking anything about the guest after him.

11:57It was nobody famous. And so I decided to like, okay, I'm just I'm just going to talk to him like he's any other guest. Invite him in. How's it going? Have a seat. Made comfortable. Very personable guy. easy to talk to. Segment starts, break comes, his assistant comes in to remind him, uh, sir, we're going to leave halfway through the next segment.

12:21We were going to play music and he was going to be able to slip out of the studio. He looks over his shoulder at his assistant and is like, I think we can stay a few more minutes. Extended the interview on the spot. Mhm. Cuz he was having a good time.

12:35Yeah. Yeah. And I was, you know, smelling myself for a second. Like, that's right. that extended with me too. But then after it was over, I thought like, dang, that I made the right choice. And from that, I kind of reframed the way that I deal with just about everybody.

12:50I mean, if you were going to treat every person you will ever meet for the rest of your life exactly the same, how would you treat them? M that's what that taught me is to be one person to set one standard. Raise or lower it. Some people you're going to embrace and some people are going to drive you up the wall.

13:14But it sort of made every interview that followed easier cuz I didn't have to calibrate myself. I could it it's like conversation no longer depended on anything around me. It depended on everything within me. Like I know who I am as a person.

13:30I know what my values are. Mhm. I know how I want to be treated. That rule is golden for a reason. And I decided that's who I'm going to be. And if we don't vibe, that's cool. If we do, that's fine. But it just it made life so much easier. And it made the work easier.

13:48You're like, "This is me. Oh, we don't click. Okay, cool. That's cool. You get to be you. I get to be me. And we figure it out somewhere along the way." And through all of the ups and downs of talking to all kinds of different people, that was just like it just greased the wheels for the next three years of that work, it it was I I'm amazed I thought of it.

14:08I didn't know I was that bright. I'm glad I had that burst of insight cuz it made life so much simpler. So much simpler. I love that. I love that. Um, okay. So, for me, what's the most transformational conversation you ever had? It actually happened about a year ago um with my kids and I have an 11-year-old and an eight-year-old and um also a 31-year-old adopted son, but this was with the biological kids and um I they had seen, you know, and experienced me having a really me hard mental health crisis for about two years.

14:44I was in and out of treatment centers. I wasn't able to, you know, you know, kind of be there for them in the way that I was before. It was a really hard time. And then I started feeling better. I had some amazing healing experiences um especially around this core wound of not feeling enough.

14:59And as I started feeling better um they could tell was really different. And now I spending a lot more time with them and and the conversation I had with them is one day my son said something about like what's different and you know and I or kind of like well why how do we know you're not going to feel bad again type thing like he was worried.

15:21I said summit because now I know that I'm enough just as I am. Not because of what I've done, not because of what I built, not because what everyone thinks of me, but just because I exist. And now that I know that, I think my life will always be different.

15:37And I and I saw him like, look, and it was the coolest thing because I then continued the conversation be like, and that extends to you and your sister, too. You guys are enough exactly as you are. You can, you know, you can try out for the water polo team.

15:51You can try to make good grades. You can try to, you know, do these things, but none of that is tied to your worth. I love you and your mom loves you and the world loves you and they always will just because you exist. And ever since then, I've seen a lightness in my kids and a connection in us that is so deep, so peaceful, and so much that at dinner every night now, we had this little ritual where we hold hands.

16:20And my 8-year-old, we start the youngest first, and she says, "I am enough." And looks around and then she looks at us, she goes, "You are enough." And she goes, "And we are enough." And then the next child does it, and then I do it. And and that all came from that conversation.

16:35And I hadn't even thought about that till this. Yeah. But it was one of the probably the most important conversations of my life. Two questions I have to ask on that. When you said you saw a lightness in your kid, was there anything in particular that you were concerned about getting heavy for them?

16:50Like were there certain aspects of growing up that you thought they needed that message for? I think when when when someone does not feel enough, which I didn't for 48 years of my life, then I think you subconsciously project that on to others and especially parents to kids.

17:06So if a parent doesn't feel enough and doesn't have their own sense of worth outside their accomplishments, then you're you're projecting that pressure onto the kids. So I think my son was feeling like he had to become a great water polo player or had to be the star of the basketball team or had to make great grades or had to look a certain way because I felt that about myself.

17:24And so I never said that to him. But I have to say it but but I didn't have to say it. But as soon as I felt that I was enough and I said that to them, then I I saw him reduce the pressure he was putting on himself. And my daughter still I think is has somewhere to grow in that because I still think she puts a lot of pressure on herself still.

17:44I mean, she's only eight, but but I I I I have seen that when we do the ritual at dinner, there's like a twinkle in their eye. There's a smile. There's a like, yeah, I am enough. And it's something it's a practice. It's not something like, oh, I experienced it once and now I have it forever.

17:59It's it's something that you have to continue to practice every day. You know, that's why I wear the bracelet. It's like my reminder every day of of that to come back to this centering. But that that conversation with the kids I think will be one that I'm I'm willing to bet any amount of money if they're sitting in these chairs someday that at least my son would say that was probably the most meaningful conversation.

18:20I see you have two of those bracelets and I feel like when you said enough I kind of you know why I have two. Why? You'll see. So one of my favorite things to do it's not about wearing it yourself. It's about giving it to someone else. So I always wear an extra one.

18:34Oh. So if I ever feel like, okay, this is something I want to share with someone, which I do right now, I can give it. So hold out your hands, palm up. There you go. And this says, you are enough on the inside. Oh, wow. And then now you have one, too.

18:52I love it. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much. When I saw this, I I kind of saw this with a period and also with an exclamation point. Give me both. like enough as sort of a as a a a checkary or enough like a relief almost. It's it's interesting you bring that up because I it was I originally made it we hand make them these women in India make them and we and that's where I had a bunch of my healing and originally it was more the I am enough a softness but I also think um in the climate that we live in today there's something also it's a real activist spirit you know so

19:32it's like enough like you know and and almost even like I think of like you know people who sometimes have been told their life that they're not smart enough or pretty enough or that they're, you know, going to amount to enough. It's like it's like it's almost like a [ __ ] you to all the people who said you couldn't do it that you are enough and you don't need their validation.

19:53I love it. Thank you for this. Okay. It's like, oh, where did that go? It's the daily double. No. If you could redesign how people connect with each other, where would you start? If I could re you went somewhere. Where did you go? This is exactly where I went.

20:19I went to Avatar. I knew there was something specific. And Pandora. And if you've watched Avatar, when the um Avatar gets on the horse and they plug in the hair. Yeah. So that's where I went. Well, they kind of like it. I was like, if I could design any way we connect, there'd be a some way that like when we shook hands, I transferred part of my consciousness to you.

20:44And so we connected in a nonverbal way and we could have conversation through touch without having to use our words. That's where I just went. I But you know, I get it. I get it. I knew you saw something specific. I could see your eyes move behind your eyebrow.

21:02If I could redesign how people connect, I would make it an educational prerequisite. I would put it in the schools because that's within our power. Yeah. I would put listening, communication, and critical thinking as a high school graduation requirement.

21:19Yeah. I would make it uh I would make it a common core standard. I would put it in the common core. Yeah. I think that, you know, especially because when you're little, like kids got great questions. Yeah. Kids are are builtin like question asker, you know, idea finder routers and they're heristic learning machines.

21:38and they just love to like they will they they'll pepper you with a million questions. But that's exactly where like as a living thing your first job is to connect. The first thing a baby does is connect with its mother. And so like connection is our lifeblood.

21:51And I think if you start real young I mean I did speech debate in middle high school. Best skill set I ever learned more than much as I use math and science, writing, social studies, the best skill set I ever learned was how to communicate with other people because that's how you connect.

22:09every piece of the social crisis we see with young people and know computers and AI and Tik Tok and it all comes back to human connection. They're trying to connect, but you can't do it, you know, 14 seconds at a time. You got to sort of invest in it.

22:24And I think kids are sort of crying out for it. They know something's wrong. They know that their parents and grandparents did not go through this, but they don't know why they have to. They're aware of what's happening. And I think frankly are already starting to get a little scared about it.

22:39I read a study last week that said Gen Z is saving for retirement at higher rates than baby boomers did at their age. So they're aware the world is not built for them right now. And they're going to want to find solace in one another. I think if we teach kids to do it, they'll stick to it.

22:57They'll learn what like appropriate conversations are, listening, investing in people, even eye contact. Yeah. Like even just something as simple as like you and me being able to like look at each other and have the conversation and not feel like, you know, we're either staring each other down or like waiting for one of our heads to explode.

23:17That skill set for kids is just it revolutionizes what it's like to grow up and to become a citizen of the world. I would start by making it a common core standard and making it a high school requirement in schools. That's great. I love that.

23:32Now I'm going to throw it where I ain't supposed to throw it and see if it ends up where it's supposed to be. Oh, see that? See that? Okay, that was He sets you up for failure and you find success. Okay, we we only have two left. Here we go.

23:52But first, let's see the one you didn't pick. Okay, tell you what, I'll ask you and you can put the answer in the comments. How about that? The one we didn't pick. When did you realize that strength and vulnerability were not opposites? Put it in the comments.

24:08So, the last question today is, "What are some tips you have to help others have deeper conversations?" That is a perfect question to end on. I shuffled the deck and it landed the right way. Yes. You're welcome. Tips to have deeper conversations.

24:22Yes. Uhu. I would get really good at asking questions. And I'll give you one example. I used to be in uh public radio and when I started to get on the air and people noticed me, they would, it happened over and over. Oh, you're Joshua Johnson.

24:36I never would have guessed you were black tall. I never would have thought you were so tall. You sound 3 foot n on the radio. Happened over and over and it used to make me crazy. And I finally figured out a simple twoword response that changed everything.

24:52When not those two words, when they would say, "I never would have guessed you were black." My response was, "Why not?" And pause. Yeah. And don't say anything. That's that's one of the one of my tips is going to be be very comfortable with silence.

25:12Well, and here's the thing. What I finally learned was there's nothing I can say to you that will hurt more than what you will say to yourself. And when they reflect back to themselves why they actually said that, they went, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry."

25:24And I say, "It's okay, but now you know, and now you can decide if that's the person you want to be, but it's not my problem anymore. It's your problem." And that gave me peace. I could let it go. I didn't have to walk through life like, I can't believe these white people, the way they treat us, we ain't never going to ride.

25:41And I didn't have to like I it it was like babies don't sleep that well. And I think the right question plus the confidence to stand on the question and just let it sit whatever the response is. And so going through life with a willingness to ask more questions than you make statements.

26:03Liberating. Nothing that happens after the question is your responsibility. Your responsibility is have the curiosity, the integrity, the perspacity, the thoughtfulness, and the humility to ask what's on your mind and not bite your tongue because, well, it might be uncomfortable.

26:21Well, what are they going to say? Let that be their problem. I have a question for you. Is it okay if I ask? Or did you just need to be heard? Is it okay if I put this out there or is this is now not the good time? Okay, sure. Ask. say it and then stand on it makes life much much easier.

26:39Okay, great. I think that deep conversations require time. I think that if you really want to have a deep conversation, you need to have undistracted time, you know, and it's kind of a little bit of what you said around ask a question and then be comfortable being silent because it's in the pause where the the depth can come out.

27:03And I think that so much of our conversations with people, the reason why they're not deep is because we're always pressed for time and our attention is always scattered, right? And so in order to have deep conversations, that's why I love, you know, hosting this this podcast now because I know that the person has set aside two hours and I might only have an hour's worth of questions for him, but I'm not in any rush, you know, and so when I ask the question, I have plenty of time to allow them to go deeper.

27:34And then often also what you said I liked is like asking a clarifying question around the first question. So, not just jumping to the next question, but then asking a a question that helps them go deeper. Um, and then sitting and having the time.

27:52So, I guess it really is about making sure that there's enough time for the person to go deep. Blake, thank you, sir. And thank you for this. This is fantastic. I really appreciate it. Ah, thank you so much. Good talk to you. Yep. Awesome.